Comments on: Dialects of nonverbal language. https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/ Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:54:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Christel https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-23583 Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:54:09 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-23583 I’m married to an Aspie guy (8 years this June) and our arguments over this particular issue have often been fraught with tension – this issue strikes to the heart of the divide between NT’s and Auties, I think.

I wouldn’t say that I’m typically NT – I have ADHD, Bipolar 2 and PMDD – so my body language tends to be LARGE. I am also unusually perceptive even for a NT – I often get chosen as a diplomatic envoy in groups I’m in because I tend to “grok” people really fast and I am good at translating ideas to others using metaphors. This ability has allowed me to have productive relationships with people who would traditionally be hard to relate to.

I have instinctively intuited all along that the difficulty was not that Aspies don’t communicate, but that they use a language convention that deviates from the NT’s system to a degree that creates a state of confusion and distrust between the communities. If you just click into the right mindspace (something I call Scientist Neutral) Aspies make a hell of a lot more sense. Aspies are a lot more rational in their thinking and constrain their statements to the facts (as they believe them to be) rather than feelings. NT’s tend to worry more about how everyone in the group feels over what the facts of the matter are. Lets face it – if you could always with about 70% accuracy see what others were feeling on their faces, you’d be fairly sensitive to this kind of thing too. It is very distracting when you are trying to get stuff done!

Unfortunately my usual ability to operate using “Scientist Neutral” language fails somewhat when I am feeling very emotional. I find it difficult being satisfied with how slow I am at using this form of communication – somehow I just cannot get as much of what I mean across when talking purely in words without bodylanguage. I imagine this is pretty much similar to “Second Language syndrome” – someone will naturally switch over to their mother tongue when excited, angry or miserable simply because their vocabulary of emotion was learned at an age before they knew their second language. To me, Aspie is a second language, and when I’m having a heated discussion or trying to express passion I find it difficult to do so without using my body language. I also find it difficult not to interpret incoming messages using that same language filter. Needless to say this causes a lot of problems!

A lot of the resistance Aspies get from NT’s about this whole thing is actually similar to the kind of discrimination people face when they speak a foreign language in a English only country – NT’s are just so used to being the majority that they don’t appreciate that being different does not equate to being wrong.

I’m lucky that my husband tries hard to meet me half way and we have learned a lot of ways to alert ourselves to the fact that we are essentially babbling at each other in alien languages though it feels like we are trying to communicate. Still, I wish sometimes I could just upgrade my brain!

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By: Denise Junk https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-23497 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:29:23 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-23497 Nt’s tell me how I am feeling all the time and how I should change it……and they are almost always wrong in their perceptions of my feelings . I am either told that I am tired or angry and that I should “calm down” when I am discussing something . Therapist would tell me that I was not in touch with my feelings when I was laughing at some painful memory but seemed unable to grasp that I found the situation funny because of the absurdity of life . Some how that was perceived as denial because I wasn’t displaying the same emotions they would feel . In addition I suffer from ingratitude because I don’t jump up and down when given a gift but I am accused of being “too intense” when I like something. Not only do the read my emotions wrong….the emotions I have are evidently wrong . (I also over anylize and think to much”….such a long list of aspie crimes .

. Part of the reason it is hard for me to believe that NT’s are actually good at reading NVC is how often I see them get it wrong in myself and the clients we are supposed to be serving . It’s really hard for me to know if they are unable to read when one of the clients are so obviously (to me) in distress or if they just don’t care .

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By: Denise Junk https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-23496 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:58:22 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-23496 In reply to observer.

I’ve seen some stuff on microexpressions that are supposed to be so subtle that you need to be trained to observe them and are often used by law enforcement to tell if someone is lying . This leads me to believe that people are not as good at reading NV as they think they are….(if they need special training) and also worries me that my own expressions are so often misjudged that I would likely end up in jail because someone who specializes in reading NT’s might think they can read me .

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By: Denise Junk https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-23495 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:53:20 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-23495 In reply to Rachel Hibberd.

I flap or flick my fingers when I am trying to block out both internal distractions and outside stimuli and trying to accomplish a task . I am pretty careful not to do it in front of others at work were it could be used against me but I may not always be aware that I am doing it . The fact that I find it so helpful in concentration is one of the many reason it drives me nuts when caregivers try and stop auties from doing it . How would they like someone ripping away the phone from thier ear or the gum from their mouth ?

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By: Denise Junk https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-23494 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:47:35 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-23494 In reply to bullet.

The person who sat down to chat with you may have believed that you were actually only reading because you were to shy to interact with others and that reading was just your way of covering it up . They probably felt that they were being kind to come and offer you some much craved social attention . I know that may seem absurd to a reading enthusiast hoping to escape sensory overload and I would have seen it that way since I do the same thing but follows my own belief that NT’s don’t have actual TOM but only an ability to project their own thoughts, feelings and beliefs onto others . The only reason other NT’s believe that these common “projections” are “empathy” is because they share so many of the same traits and experience these projections as actual empathy .

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By: jd https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-18412 Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:27:58 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-18412 (Amanda, I’ve been doing a little lurking, and have alot I have felt at times I’d like to share/communicate with you, but I’ll just say “Hi. I deeply enjoy reading your perspectives (often because I relate in ways I never have before), and every time I do it makes me thankful that you *are* out there articulating your insights, when I feel overwhelmed with where to ever start ((let alone considering the difficulties of expressing them accurately and without being misconstrued..))..the whole thing seeming more time-consuming than I can afford to consider.. – You all the more appreciated.)

About non-verbal connection and autistic interaction/presence together –

Every expression comes from how someone feels internally. The perspective, the way emotion is felt, the way a thought is seen, how a person feels about what they are interacting with, etc. affect the coloring of our words, our subtleties of tone and facial expression (everyone, but the difference often with autism every other factor affecting how the person is feeling shows, too, or instead.) But this could be said about neurotypicality, too. Alot of what is said is true or isn’t true about autism or NT is really both about both. That’s part of my core thoughts about autistic social interaction. People that feel/see/think in similar ways/styles/wavelengths always best understand and are best understood by each other.

I’ve noticed through life, the minority, rare minds – perspectives!- that I felt really *got* things in a way that I couldn’t understand why others didn’t, too. They say there is so much that is obvious that autistics don’t get(see – really-notice!), but whatever perspective or style of interaction just IS what it Is. Something can be and be all that it’s supposed to be without being either/or, more/less, better/best.

When I have had one-on-one interactions with autistics the closest feeling has been “magic”.
The space of those interactions, for me, was an unhurried pace, deeply seeing or feeling, and most commonly a sense of truly being present together. Like “we are both here now.” and complete understanding of the other and the moment being understood smoothly and fluidly and gently.

Feeling common understanding and in-sync really comes from being with someone who you can relate to and who can relate to you. Which is why NT’s and autistics have trouble understanding each other, but both are valid within their own contexts. It’s a further stretch for some people to relate to others, but ultimately beneficial.

But because of this lack of an outlet (like-minded or like-seeing) for this type of interaction, those spaces of Presence seemed rare and far between. From that perspective, it truly seemed like almost all people were incapable of being present (another way of seeing that all experiences are valid).

With my younger brother, we would sit very still, and very quiet, examining toys, or who knows what we did. He the silent inventor. Once in a while, I would ask him a question of what he thought or liked (sometimes having to ask again). There was subtle wit, a tiny expression at the mouth and eye, and I would know what he thought, and why it amused him, and always there was the understanding of the ways of respecting the sanctity of our stillness and depth.

A boy a few years older than myself in school, the other kids shunned, and I was vaguely aware of this, but I had no thoughts about why, but knew that he was *different* (today many things from the years fit together). One day after school (its funny, I don’t know if I was 7 or 10, if he was 10 or 14, that part was meaningless) I was waiting on the playground for some reason, and everyone was leaving, and he walked slowly, head down, and finally took a seat on a swing. In every subtle body movement I could feel his sensitivities, his boundaries (entirely different from how I perceive NTs) I approached nearer, respecting these invisible feedbacks, unhurried, and asked his permission to join him on the swing next to him. That was fine, and we swang low and lazy, feeling the momentums of both swings, gentle and soothing. I asked him if he liked or didn’t like something, and though we had no eye contact (he never really looked at me), I could feel his joy in the flashing moment of amusement and understanding it provoked us to share. We swang somewhat higher and felt the bliss of the curving momentum, gently flying, the air breezing by.. When I recalled this after beginning an indepth understanding of autism, it brought tears to my eyes, how deeply we shared that experience together, how different it was to what is capable with most, and the glimpse of the commonality of focus and consciousness that enables it.

I’ve met a couple little boys with alot of autistic traits, who I see others don’t seem to see what I do.. I meet them and I’m bowled over – by their presence I can feel, by how perceptive I can feel them being! by how much is shared in a tiny facial expression or gesture, which is truly reverbating through them, but it goes unseen by most eyes. Instead others see that they’re so quiet, or don’t initiate ______, or have to be explicitly invited to eat their lunch. Yes, we All have our beauty.

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By: Disability Blog Carnival #18… and a baby? Perhaps? « Retired Waif https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-18411 Fri, 13 Jul 2007 02:22:14 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-18411 […] just give her the place of honor here at the end, and let her speak in her own words about the Dialects of Nonverbal Language, as well as an interview with Donna Williams in which Autism Goes on Trial. I’d also like to […]

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By: Emilie https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-18410 Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:12:21 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-18410 Reading NT body language was something I had to deliberately teach myself how to do. It’s still something where I have to intellectually think it through to see which feelings someone is showing. I found Desmond Morris’ books about body language to be most helpful. I am very easy for people to read, apparently, as I don’t put up a “front” — no poker face for me. I’m not autistic, but I am pretty sure that I have nonverbal learning disability. Plus being an “Introverted Thinking” personality type…figuring out how other people are feeling does not come easily or effortlessly.

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By: Mountainrose https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-18409 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:54:05 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-18409 Whole books have been written about body language using it as a tool to interpret emotion such as crossing your legs and arms supposedly implies not opening up or feeling guarded…In fact it is thought that by imitating the body language of an
emotion you want to feel or portray you can in fact achieve this. I have used this myself being
an introvert that for a while was in the job best held by an extrovert…I could imitate the look of
a relaxed person wanting to convey knowlege when speaking in front of a group and pretty much accomplish this…The problem is when this is applied to someone who has another reason for the body language like an Autistic wanting to fold their arms for comfort..I raised two Autistic children and being a mother who wanted to make her children comfortable I learned not to look them in the eye but to hold things in front of them to discuss…I was told by a boss that my co-workers thought I was hiding something or possibly lying as I would not look them in the eye…By this time it was such a habit that I became uncomfortable trying to change it…So much for the general blindapplication of such a concept. I recently had a psychologist visiting me along with a mutual acquaintance…The psychologist was going over all the books in my library…slowly reading all the labels…I am sure she thought she was learning a lot about me by my selection of books…What she didn’t know was that the library is a composite of books from many people that were moving when I moved…These books are from my diverse adult children…books from my elderly parents..
books from friends of my adult children…etc. They are not just “my books” and I have read but a fraction of them…Anyone basing who I am by what is in the library is going to not have an
accurate view at all of who I am…I also know that handwriting is used as a tool to interpret what a person is like…and even the handbags women carry has been analyzed…I have often wondered if these things too can be used as tools in reverse and conscooisly to change how you feel about things…If you imitate the handwriting of a person with a positive trait will you then acieve having this trait? I have read that the set of your jaw can determine how aggessive you are and that physically changing a jawline can affect your personality…It is all so much to think about…
and all easy to misinterpret….

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By: unashamed https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/dialects-of-nonverbal-language/#comment-18408 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:34:33 +0000 http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=414#comment-18408 Someone mentioned NTs being able to easily mimic one another. I can mimic NTs but not understand what it is that I’m saying.

Anyway I certainly know what you mean. Including the naked feeling. I get that with people than can read me really really well (few and far between). But in some ways it’s nice too. Someone mentioned the crossing the arms things which for me is a natural position having nothing to do with being defensive and everything to do with liking the pressure I exert on my own arms, even better is when I do it behind my back.

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